A Thankless Industry Of Growth & Grit With John Sacks | Episode 117

Whether you're in the residential real estate industry or not, you could assume that starting a property management company from scratch is not easy. Guess what, it's not. John Sacks' story at Property Management Redefined is one of hustle, grit, and determination; stemming from an uninspiring stint in corporate America, to then choosing the entrepreneurial road alone. Going from 0 units to 700+ units in just over 10 years is nothing short of amazing. Sean & Tim dig deep into John's journey to extract nothing but solid gold. Our loyal listeners and watchers will absolutely love this B&R interview!

Big shout-out to our show's loyal and dedicated sponsor: Property Management Redefined. John Sacks and his property management squad love our show and continue to support our mission of helping people through podcasting!

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Until next week, keep learning and keep growing!

** Episode Shout-Outs **
→ Cherry Street Tavern: https://www.retroroadmap.com/listing/cherry-street-tavern-philadelphia-pa-a-neighborhood-local-for-over-100-years/
→ Episode Sponsor, Property Management Redefined: https://gopmr.com/

📲 Contact Info 📲
→ Sean Mooney, Mooney Insurance Brokers: www.mooneybrokers.com/
→ Tim Garrity, The Tim Garrity Team: www.timgarrityteam.com/

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Their kid had stuffed a G.I. Joe figure down the toilet. We had a situation at one point where someone called us up and they're like, I have a clock in my toilet. Okay. We'll get out and we'll take care of it and no problem. No, yeah, I need you to do it right now. They have one one toilet. Understandable. No problem. Of course. You know, we're dispatching the plumber right now to get out there. Plumber gets out there, he pulls the toilet off of the uh the floor and he's like, Oh boy. I see your problem. Baby alligator? Well, there's your problem. I wish there was a baby alligator. Uh their kid had stuffed a G.I. Joe figure down the toilet. And they're like, they were so sure the tenant was so sure that it was us, that it was our property, that our problem, and all that type of stuff. I can't make this up, dude. Kid walks in, he's like, Oh, thanks. I was looking for that. And the plumber's just like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Welcome to the podcast dedicated to real estate, insurance, and building your business. Join us as we take you along our own business building journeys with additional wisdom from our network of local and national experts. Welcome to Bricks and Risk.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

This episode is brought to you by Property Management Redefined. PMR is not just managing properties, we're creating partnerships that build long-term success for property owners. John and his team can be reached at manage at gopmr.com or by phone 267-753-6005. Tim. Yes, John. Who's a good client for PMR?

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Property management redefined is looking for property owners who value three things accountability, reliability, and a results-driven approach. I want to maximize returns, but still provide client and tenant satisfaction.

SPEAKER_00 1:56

There's a lot of property managers out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

There are.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

What does PMR do really well?

SPEAKER_01 2:02

Biggest thing is they're seamless and they're worry-free. So with that approach in mind, it allows the property owner to put their trust in PMR and know that the results will be there. The other thing I think a property owner is really going to value because they do it so well is that they have a local expert team, boots on the ground, managing your properties and your tenants' expectations every day so that you feel good about your investments.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

We have millions of listeners out there. Tens of millions. If they want more information, how do they find PMR?

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Right here, guys. Reach out to John Stacks and his team at property management redefined. Take good care of you. Hey everyone. Welcome to another episode of Bricks and Risk. I'm Tim Gardy. And I'm Sean Mooney. Today, Sean, we have an outstanding local guest. We have John Sachs, owner and broker of record of Property Management Redefined. How are you doing today, John? Great. It's great to be here, guys. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, thanks for being here. Seriously. All right. So a little background on John. So built from the ground up, PMR is a management company you can grow with. With more than 700 units under management, John and his team provide trusted rental property management services that help owners maximize returns and enjoy hassle-free ownership. PMR is fresh off their 10-year anniversary, still defying the odds, and John is loving what he does. As a rogue accountant, John is a man that requires every bit of welcome because nobody wants to hear from their property manager. A University of Pittsburgh graduate. Yeah, nice. There you go. Married to his wife Lauren and father to Sam. Alright. So you started with an accounting degree from a great school and put seven years into the financial services industry before starting PMR. What what was your job in finance? What were you doing?

SPEAKER_03 4:11

Basically, I was starting off as a staff accountant and then from there made my way up to kind of a senior accountant and then swapped over to operations from operations, moved into sales because I was like, oh, sales, that's where all the money is, obviously. Right. Right. Uh and don't get wrong, yeah, the money's there, but I just was not built for sales. I I am not that type of human being. I I don't have that type of relationship building capability. Yeah. And what company was this with? This is Aberdeen Asset Management. It was a great company. I mean, don't get me wrong. They were Scottish. They were awesome. Uh everyone that I worked with was amazing, but I just needed to take a different route.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

I think my sister worked for Aberdeen.

SPEAKER_03 4:47

Really? Was it locally that you were working for them? Yeah. Yeah, Megan worked for Aberdeen. Oh. Yeah, if we were good. I think Megan was actually at my wedding if I remember right.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

Get out of here. For realsies?

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Oh, I love that. Where did that come from? Oh. How's Megan doing? She's good.

unknown 5:03

Good.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Although. Fun fact. She's not that good. No, she's great. But she lives in close proximity to the Cherry Street Tavern. If you saw the news recently. Dude. Are they done? No, they're selling.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah. They've been they've been kind of shout out to Cherry Street Tavern, by the way. Um one of my favorites. There's been whispers. I know, but like it's a great spot. Well, maybe someone buys it, recognizes it for what it is, and just keeps it rolling. What do you guys do later? Yeah. On the Cherry Street. The Cherry Street. All right. So you're working for Aberdeen. Is this in Philly? Is this in another market? This is in Philly.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Uh my sales territory was out in the West Coast. So I was flying out quarterly to meet with my external salespeople. And I don't know. It was just uh it was nice. The first time I flew out was great. The second time I flew out was great. The third, fourth, and tenth time, I was just like, nah, this is a little too much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

All right. So you're at Pitt, you're studying finance. Like, where were you at headspace-wise? Was it just like, look, Corporate America, go part, go plant my feet somewhere, like get the benefits, retire. Like, where, if you can go back, where were you at around then? I shouldn't have left.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Wait, he sounds like me.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Yeah. Just like Mr. Mooney. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:23

And you did so you did seven years there. Uh, yeah, I did. Uh, and listen, the headspace was basically I've always wanted to have my own thing and do my own thing. And I have a very, very supportive wife who basically looked at me and said, Shout out to Lauren. Lauren, thank you so much. Uh, she said to me, Go do something with yourself. If this is if it's not working for you, then go do something. You seem to enjoy property management because we owned a triplex at the time, and I was working as the treasurer for our condo. Yep. And I said, Yeah, I do enjoy property management. Didn't know the first thing about it. Uh grew into, you know, starting the property management company and everything like that. And from there, basically it ended up just growing and expanding, thankfully. I mean, you know, shout out to my very first customer, Irfan Raza, who was the man trusted. Oh, Erfan? Yeah. No way. Shout out to Irfan Raza. Raza Homes. Lots of shout-outs going on. I love it. Dude, that's great. But he trusted me and uh, you know, I've grown with him since there. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

So was there a lightning bolt moment where you're like, you know what? This accounting thing isn't for me. We're like, like, now I gotta get out.

SPEAKER_03 7:30

I don't know if it was necessarily a lightning bolt moment more than a I felt like I was selling my soul. Okay. You know, when you start trading your your uh soul for a paycheck and you're just kind of like, this this just isn't working.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Was it the time? Was it the travel that was just grading on you, or was it something else?

SPEAKER_03 7:46

Uh I just wasn't built for sales. Okay. I think that was kind of like my last stop, and I just said, you know what, I want to try my own thing. I want to do my own thing. And that's where we decided to do a property management company.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

So it's almost like you gave it every opportunity at Aberdeen. You got up to sales because you're like, look, sales technically like sky's the limit. Like you do really well in sales, you can make a ton of money. Absolutely. And then you're doing that, you're like not feeling it. All right, you had told me this story before, so I want to bring this up. So you said confidence. Before you got into property management, you were like in a class or at an event or something with Alan Dom. Shout out to Alan. And he gave you some advice about property management. What did he tell you?

SPEAKER_03 8:28

Uh, well, we were at the GPAR event, and I stand up to introduce myself because Alan's the outgoing president and he wants everyone to introduce themselves. I say I'm John Saxwaller, property management redefined. He said, I'm starting a property management company here in Philadelphia. Alan looks at me and he goes, Why the hell would you want to do that?

SPEAKER_01 8:46

I love it. It's just such a great advice. Because then you're like, huh, now I'm really gonna go after this.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

Or you sit there and you really rethink your decisions over a couple beers, and you're just like, hmm, Mooney would have loved that.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

That's like uh if we in our recent episode were you know giving advice to someone who wanted to start an insurance agency, and I said, first step, don't start an insurance agency. That's number one. Always the number one step.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Well, it's number two, remember step number one.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

On his level, he's seen a lot, right? He's seen all the pitfalls, all the landmines, and then you're like the new up and comer. Yep. And it's like sure about that kid?

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

You know?

SPEAKER_01 9:29

So he handles all of his stuff. Does he do his own property management as well, Alan? Alan? I think yeah, he does. Okay. Interesting. So what year is this? Like, take us back in time.

SPEAKER_03 9:37

Twenty fourteen, I started thinking about it. By 2015, we launched. Okay. And, you know, things are a lot different when you don't have kids, right? Yes. I mean, you're you're able to have all the energy in the world. You're able to stay up till three o'clock in the morning, burn fires and stuff like that. Um, and so I just went at it. I mean, I cold messaged people on Lincoln. I went to every G PAR meeting. I tried to meet everyone and anyone for coffee, joined BI, mat like a lot of great people at BI, got a couple great referrals from BI and everything like that. And then uh it finally took off. You know, it took a solid six months of me grinding, just grinding and grinding, because no one trusts the new guy. You got to prove yourself. And then you you finally get that like lifeline, and you're just like, holy this is amazing. Yeah, this is what this is what I wanted to do. You can't beat the rush.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

So you're starting this. Are you also like because this this kind of happened to me? So we met each other right when I started Copper Hill. You started your company, that's how long we've known each other. And it's not date us. Right, right. Yeah, and I remember like when we're both getting started, I think we definitely had something in common. We're like, look, we're we're not like the poster children for what we're doing right now. Like, I'm I'm not the typical broker of record age or you know, I don't have it in my family. Like, I didn't have like this head start or anything like that. And same thing for you, like property management. I didn't have a ton of property management company experience at that point, but I dealt with a few. And to be frank, they all they all pretty much sucked. Uh, they didn't care about customer service, they weren't out there shaking hands. You know, I feel like you just giving that example of being like, you know, doing a little cold lead gen on LinkedIn, but really getting out there and putting yourself out there, like shaking hands, meeting people, letting people know like what you're all about, what your background is. Obviously, you're a smart guy, you know, you got good experience in corporate America. What was it? So for with like um with Irfan, when you started working with him, did he give you like a reason as like why he was interested in working with you versus like someone else? There were a bunch of property management companies.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

He was just willing to take a shot on the new guy. He liked kind of he liked my background, he liked kind of where I was coming from with things, and he enjoyed the fact that he was exclusivity and my only client at the time. Yeah. So I mean, it was just kind of a welcome thing for him. Plus, he got to beat me up on my rate. So yeah, it was good.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Well, the other thing too is it's um, hey, I'll give the new guy a shot because like I I guess there could be a potential downside, but if he didn't like you, right, he just moved to the next, you know, have you come in and if it doesn't work out, move to the next one. So I guess there's uh at that point some flexibility to say, yeah, come on in, John. You know, I'll let I'll let I'll allow you the opportunity to prove yourself.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Absolutely. And I think one of the key things about proving yourself is and what I've made the entire business to be is it's a partnership. This is this is not just, hey, I'm selling a service or something of that type of nature. This is legitimately like my landlords have my cell phone number. My landlords can text me at any time. I will get back to them. I want to make sure that we're in this together because if they're not having a good time, I'm probably not having a good time as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Well, there you're you're a supplement to their business. You know, as much as you have your business accountant that's going to help you drive your business to find, you know, the best ways to maximize everything within your business. The property management side of things is a key component. Or, you know, if you have these in an investment portfolio, I mean, that's a that's a very important part of your business.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

You're 100% right. And I mean, the way I like to describe it to most people is hey, you guys go to the stock market and you search for a good stock, right? And you buy that stock and you trust the management of that company to run that stock and grow that stock and give you money. Um, so what we look at it as is you already invested the money. Now you need the management team, right? So we're not cutting you out of the loop. You're still the CEO, but we're the operations, we're the marketing, we're the dev behind you, you know? And that's what you're getting with our team. You're not just getting, you know, you're not getting a commodity. A commodity, that's right. You know, you're you're getting somebody that actually wants to be partnered with you and actually work as a member of your team.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

You said really, really quick, you said something there a couple of times, which I think is interesting. It seems very fundamental to what you're doing. You said partner and partnership a couple times. Why, why, when you were getting started, why did that stand out to you? Like, is it just how you were raised, you know, just mindset from working in corporate America? Like, what was it about saying, look, I want to be your partner? Like, I don't want to be like just this commoditized service where again, I'm gonna give you a lower rate because I need business. Of course. But you get that level of partnership type service just by working with me. What what was it that made you have that mindset?

SPEAKER_03 14:38

So we actually explored property management for our triplex, and we were like, okay, you know, we interviewed a couple property management companies and everything, and it was just kind of very sterile at the end of the day. Uh it was okay, you just give us the stuff and we'll you know, do your accounting and we'll collect your rent and you'll hear from us when something's wrong and all that type of stuff. And I was like, okay, that's fine. But I mean, what if I want to call you and get insight and information? Oh, well, you know, you don't. Right. So I was like, eh, I think we need to work on that. So I decided that I was just gonna make myself available and treat it as if it was a partnership because one doesn't work without the other. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Two questions. Uh first one is so you've seen the landscape of property management in Philadelphia.

unknown 15:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Would you describe uh the masses of property management as just that as like a vanilla offering that gets you in the door and they're kind of hidden behind shower curtain?

SPEAKER_01 15:33

You need me more than I need you, kind of business philosophy. I don't think so.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

I think everyone's got their strengths, right? I mean, TCS has size, uh, OCF has ORI, which is amazing. I mean, like everyone out of property management has their own, you know, thing. And I mean, like, to me, everyone's got their own strengths and weaknesses. And I think that really it is a partnership because at the end of the day, you and your property manager have to click. Uh, if you don't click, if you're not on the same mindset wavelength, you're not gonna be able to run a business together.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Second part of that, what what is it? So to kind of piggyback off of that, uh because it sounds like you do some things very differently than some others in terms of your strengths and what you lend and bring to the table. Can you talk a little bit about that, what maybe differentiates you and and kind of what you offer? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:25

Uh that's a great point, man. I I I love technology. I am a self-defined nerd. I am one of those people that it's like it's new, it's shiny.

unknown 16:34

I have to add it.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Yeah, yeah, right? You're into it, you're progressive with tech. Exactly. That's exactly right. And uh basically I started out with like, okay, here's my property management software. I need it, I need the best property management software. And I need to be able to be connected to all these things and do all these things. So started with that, and then it just turned into this like waterfall effect of basically like all my systems started talking to each other and everything, and we became much more efficient in what we were able to do versus just like, okay, you know, this comes in here, now we have to go make this and do this, and you know, step three. We actually got to a point where things were just kind of moving by itself, and now with AI, I mean, yeah, it's it's mind-blowing what we're able to do now. I mean, we're talking about anticipatory maintenance needs, things like that.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

I mean, I'm gonna go back to 2014. So we're starting Copper Hill, you're starting PMR, and and I've mentioned this on a podcast before. Like, when we started Copper Hill, we had that same mindset for like efficiency, modern, like different than a lot of the brokerage brokerages that exist. So this is 12 years ago, okay, for perspective. One of the things we had on our one page website, which probably cost us like $500 to make as we work out of our $800 a month broom closet, a pipeline, shout out the pipeline. Um, was that we said we're a paperless office. And literally, like, I kid you not, there were agents that would come up to us like at events or like, you on your website it says you're paperless. And I'm like, yeah. They're like, How's that? I'm like, Well, what's your concern? Well, you can't do that. Why can't I do that? Well, doesn't the state what if the state audits you? I was like, the state allows you to keep electronic records of everything you got going on, like DocuSign exists, and that's a way if if they ever need to look at your stuff, I I keep a hard drive to be safe, but I'll just show I'll just take them right to the cloud. Here are of our files, all ten of them in the beginning. And uh and I remember like being at that point starting a brokerage, like, you know, at the time I was 35, Ryan's, you know, three and a half years younger than me, and Andrew was like eight years younger than me. So we were like three very young guys running this brokerage, and just that paperless thing alone, people are like, What? Like, even the agents that would come in there, like, well, I need to, you know, I still like doing like paper, I still like going to meet with my clients and like sitting at their kitchen table. That's perfectly fine. You're scanning it into our system, not us. So, like, talk about that a little bit with like where you were with tech and seeing what was out there per Mooney's question, the landscape of property management.

SPEAKER_03 19:17

Yeah, I mean, listen, you're you're spot on. I mean, a lot of people at the time were still doing like send me a check or something like that. Like the fact that I had a portal that could collect rent payments electronically, and I was huge into not charging tenants to use the portal. Like a lot of people try and use it. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Is that what people were doing back then? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

They were charging their tenants to use it.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Yeah, they still do, actually. I mean, like, that's there's a fee and there's a servicing fee, and they're just kind of swapping that out to the client. It's a pass through.

SPEAKER_03 19:44

Yeah, well, it's not just a pass-through. Some people mark it up. Oh, wow. Yeah. It's uh it's a revenue producer for some people. Interesting cash cow. I yeah, I looked at it and I was like, I could make money off of this, but I'd rather not waste my time having to manually process checks and things of that type of nature. So I took on the fee myself and I just ate the fee for all the processing, made it free for the tenants. Um, and that way it was able to really get people onto paying the portal. And owners loved it. They were like, oh my God, my rent comes in so much faster. Things are happening. I can see live stats of what's going on with my portal. Uh, and then we got owners on the other side, which is they have a portal. They have something they can log into, and it's tangible what they actually are seeing, right? And so we would upload information to the portal, we would publish their statements, send out their disbursements and everything like that. But we were always there in the background if they needed us, you know, whether it be questions or something, you know, something weird. They're just like, hey, uh, what happens if I need to do this with my tenant? And we're like, yeah, we can we can help you with that.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Was that new? Like, was that something you think you were in the forefront of at the time by offering that? And and was it hard to get some people to buy in? Like, after you see it, it totally makes sense. Right. Like, oh, I got 80% of these tenants that paid within the first two days. Like, whereas prior to it's two weeks out, you're still chasing checks. Right. So, like when you see it, when it's in play, it's easy to say, oh yeah, this makes total sense. The buy-in on the front end was that difficult for some of these property owners to make the switch.

SPEAKER_03 21:18

So it wasn't necessarily difficult for the property owners, but a lot of tenants hard times to get them to pay online. They were like, it's gonna steal my bank information. 12 years ago. I know. This is so crazy once you think about it. It's true. I mean, you know, people were still in the mindset of they're gonna steal my bank information. I don't trust this, I don't want to do that, you know, you're gonna take money out of my account. I I like to control the flow of money in my account. I was like, listen, I understand. That's fine. You know, you can print out this little voucher and take cash and go somewhere else and make your rent payment through like a Walmart or uh ace check caching or something like that. I said, or you could sit at your house and click a button and it's done. Yeah. A lot of people started to come around as soon as they were like ace. Check hashing or click a button.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

Well, three trips to the uh check hashing place, you know, it's like, oh, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? Exactly. Especially by by waiving that fee. It makes that um adoptability a little bit easier.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

Dude, you hit the nail on the head. I mean, honest to God, one of the best things was is I said to every single tenant, it's free. It's free. It does not cost you any money. Yeah. And they were like, okay, I can I can try it. But at the back end, it saved me from Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Like dude.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Just the labor alone. It's all that's like a full-time employee, a full-time employee. Yeah, that's a full-time admin just for that job. When you're when you're not when you're starting up, you don't have cost allocations for that.

SPEAKER_00 22:48

From an accountant's perspective, I look at it like, all right, full-time person, I pay them 50 grand versus what I'm eating in fees is not 50 grand.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

Not even close. Right? Right. Right. I think it was 50 cents a transaction to come through. You know, some tenants paid like three, four, five transactions of time. Whatever. Yeah. Wasn't a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Um like buck fifty.

SPEAKER_03 23:08

Good.

SPEAKER_01 23:09

I think that much. Costco all the time.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

Still a dollar fifty. Yeah. Um, your accounting background. The talk a little bit about that as well, because that's something you also would bring to the table. You know, it'd be important for me as a property owner because you know the numbers.

SPEAKER_03 23:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

You know the numbers maybe better than the property owners.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

This is true. I mean, so a lot of property owners turn and they're like, I don't understand like what's going on this month. Can you help me out? What's and you know, you have to give them an explanation. Sometimes tenants pay late, sometimes tenants don't pay. And I mean, a lot of it comes up to basically us trying to manage the situation proactively for a landlord versus reactively for a landlord. And that's that's a really hard thing to do. I mean, staying in front of 700 plus properties, I'm not gonna say that we can do it 100% all the time. Every once in a while, the bus gets you. But, you know, for the most part, we really try and stay ahead of everything. And it is one of those things that we've tried to make kind of a center point of our company. And one of that is the accounting, right? So we are very big on getting information into the system as quickly as possible. Like we call our app folio, we now use app folio, uh, we call app folio our source of truth. So that is where all the bills go. That is where everything gets paid out of, that is where everything gets processed. It has real-time access on its portal, so landlords are able to see what's going on just that second, you know, and it gives us the ability to kind of give them confidence that we know what we're doing because at the same time we're putting it in, they're getting to see it. And plus, I'm a numbers nerd.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Hey everyone, this is Tim, your favorite bricks and risk co-host. But don't tell Sean. I hope you're enjoying this episode, and I'll get right back to it in a moment. Our audience grows through word of mouth. So if you would please take a moment of your time and give us a review on the platform you're on, that would be fantastic. Please also help spread the BR word by sharing your favorite episode with a friend. We greatly appreciate your time and trust. Now, back to the show.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Uh technology question for you because you go kind of go that way. AI and forecasting. Are you able do you do uh first question? Do you do marketing out of that or is it a separate CRM that does just a marketing thing for you?

SPEAKER_03 25:33

So uh marketing is done out of both clickup and uh proper or Apolio, I keep saying proper. Apolio, they talk to each other. Yeah, yeah. Uh, but shout out shout out to my guy, Fred Critzando. He's the one that shout out to Fred. He is like our marketing boy. He is all all over things. I mean, really. So if you need any property management help, you look him up. He's great. He's a really a source of knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Um, second part of that, with AI and all the capabilities with you need like a monocle while you're asking these questions.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

Right. You need to like I do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Next one. Um are you able to forecast out and almost like you talked about anticipatory uh type of I don't know, reach out or or or knowing in advance uh with certain things. Like with clients, if you have a person that because we do it in our office, we actually make notations in files, so we kind of know like the the people that pay late or need a reminder.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Right in double check.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Are you able to like put into the system like this person needs extra attention to pay their bill?

SPEAKER_03 26:41

So it's not so much that this person needs extra attention to pay their bill or anything. Like a lot of that is managed by app folio at the end of the day. Like for us, it's all about maintenance at the end of the day. Because that is the killer for both tenant satisfaction, that's the killer for your portfolio cost.

SPEAKER_00 26:56

And that's what a broken sink, a leaky toilet, all that. Exactly. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

Exactly. So what we're trying to do is we're looking at weird things like what's the weather gonna be for the next week? Is it gonna be freezing? Do we have properties that have exposed pipe risk? If we have properties that have had a history of frozen pipes, we gotta reach out to them and tell them turn on the sink in your you know, back laundry room or something like that. Right. So we're we're trying to get ahead of things instead of being behind it. Did that stop anyone from you know freezing pipes? No.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

But yeah, we tried to get ahead of it. Are there sensors that you have uh in any of the buildings where you're able to look at, oh, this temperature's dipping down? Good question.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

Inside internally. Solid question we don't because most of those are Internet of Things devices and require Wi-Fi and things of that type of nature. And I mean, truth be told, most tenants don't want us on their Wi-Fi system, and most landlords don't want to pay up for Wi-Fi every single month. So I understand where they're coming from. So really it again, it comes back to the anticipatory maintenance. So we really look at okay, here's 10 years of property data. We know these houses that tend to have laundry rooms in the rear always have frozen pipes.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 28:02

Well, take all those properties that we know that have frozen pipes or laundry rooms in the rear, and we're gonna reach out to all those tenants and say, make sure you drip your faucets, make sure that you're gonna, you know, make sure everything's gonna be running, or else you're gonna have a frozen pipe. And if it bursts, we're gonna be in a lot of trouble.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

We actually did that recently with our insurance agency down the shore. A lot of these properties sit vacant during winter months. Yeah. Um there's policy um provisions built into the policy saying you're required to keep your temperature internally at X, or there's no coverage. No kidding. Yeah. So as we saw the um really strong uh cold temperatures come through, we sent out uh a reminder to any pro any of these property owners. Hey, just a reminder. We told them to kick the temperature up because normally it's 55. We said 60 just because if it drops real low, yeah, you could have a problem. So similarly, kind of like what you're talking about and doing to try to proactively manage it. That's a good partnership. Yeah, it's a good partner right there.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

Yeah, you're watching out for them. And that's that's what you're supposed to be doing as a partner, right? Is you're supposed to be watching each other's backs. It's not trying to get the most out of somebody or something like that. Do the least amount of work and be like, let me just collect my you know my fee every month. Exactly. The way I view it and the way I like to look at it is very similar to you. It's like, okay, we got these people, they need to know this now. Yep, let's get it in front of them. Yep, right? And that way, hey, you're being a good partner, you're doing your job, you're you're doing your due diligence.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

It's also a value proposition. It's something that's going to set you apart from others. Because there's there's so many, and I'll just take my example. There's so many insurance agencies that would never think or want or care about trying to do that for their clients, right? There's things that you do that add value and strengthen that partnership that others won't do. Uh it's just for us, it's just a way to differentiate.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

It's like that you've said this many times. He said this on a bunch of episodes, the the trusted advisor. Yeah. So being that trusted, no matter what, you can be in any service, I don't care what service you're in, you can always be a trusted advisor. Because as this conversation is going, we all did the same thing when we started, is that how one, what's important to us? Okay, so we start our businesses at the time. So you were 2014, you were 2013. And I was 2014 with Copper Hill. You know, what are some things we can do that make us that trusted advisor? And again, does it save some time on our end? Like, do we not need as much labor or like as much office space or you know, file cabinets for all the paper files? Yes, that's true. But I really truly believe when you have that trusted advisor mindset, you're doing that solely for the benefit of your client because you're like, I want them to be able to like experience what I have to offer this way. Because if I do it this way, chances are nine times out of ten, they're gonna be like, that was awesome. That took me less time, or that was not as much of a pain in the ass. And I think just having that focus does separate you. Like it's one of your first questions, like, what separated you from these companies in Philadelphia? I'm sure that was one of them. Um, and also a fun fact about when we started all of our businesses, we all went super bare bones on our offices. So this is pro tip, listeners and watchers out there. So you had your half desk in the burbs, okay. Scared space, scared space in the back closet room closet. We had um, you know, uh, I think it was like a like an eight, an eight by six space at pipeline. And you started out in a tiny little space at Industrious. Shout out to Industrious, still with them, love them to death. But you've expanded within Industrious.

SPEAKER_03 31:56

Yes, we so as the team grew and we needed more space, that's when the decision was made. We only grew out of our original office this year. Uh it's it's you know, one of those things where we can run the company from anywhere because of how we have structured it from a cloud performance platform, from you know, having field team being connected to all their databases and things of that type of nature. Uh we have uh clickup as one of our background chat applications and task managers. And I mean, it's like one of those things where we've really tried to structure it so that you can be anywhere at any place at any time and run the business. And that allows us a lot of freedom, right? So, you know, I've had employees that are just kind of like, I'm going on vacation. I'm gonna still work, but I'm gonna work while I'm on vacation.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

Yep. That's awesome, man. All right. So one thing you had said about loving most about what you do. You said the people you get to work with and the problems you get to solve. Why'd you put that one down? The problems I get to solve? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

The problems I get to solve are sometimes so out there in terms of what we have to do that I just I I just like I just look at it and I'm just like, is this is this reality right now? Is this is this happening? Is this Earth? Right? And I mean, like, we had a situation at one point where someone called us up and they're like, I have a clock in my toilet. Like, okay, we'll get out and we'll take care of it, and no problem. No, yeah, I need to do it right now. Yeah, they have one one toilet, understandable. No problem, of course. You know, we're dispatching the plumber right now to get out there. Plumber gets out there, he pulls the toilet off of the uh the floor, and he's like, Oh boy, I see your problem. Baby alligator? I wish there was a baby alligator. Uh their kid had stuffed a G.I. Joe figure down the toilet. No. And they're like, they were so sure, the tenant was so sure that it was us, that it was our property, that our problem, and all that type of stuff. And then he's like, the kid, I couldn't I can't make this up, dude. Kid walks in, he's like, Oh, thanks. I was looking for that. And the plumber's just like okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

So anyway. Any stories of finding like a call and then you go in a closet and like a dead body? Anything like that?

SPEAKER_03 34:07

We don't talk about that, dude.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Oh, that's that's you know, we're not trying to get arrested. You you pay extra for that stuff. We're gonna have to slice and splice. No, we did a we'd read, find the femur bone up in the uh call space.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

We had we had Zach with the with the tin box thinking he was gonna be rich.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

The worst one I've ever been to was I had a landlord call me up and he's like, hey, you know, just bought this property share of sale and everything like that. Can you go take a look at it for me?

unknown 34:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

No, no, you need to go for I'm not the first. You go first.

SPEAKER_03 34:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ignorance is tell me how it looks and then I'll join you. So I get up to the property and the front door is wide open. Unusual. Not always a good sign. Uh and I walk in and the smell hits me. That is just putrid. I it's I I couldn't walk more than two steps into the property without just wanting to vomit. So I walk out of the property and the next door neighbor actually is coming out right at that moment. He's like, uh, smelled that, right? I was like, yeah. He's like, yeah, the guy died upstairs two weeks ago. Oh I was like, is he is he still up there?

SPEAKER_02 35:14

He's like, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_03 35:17

No one found him and he like, you know, ripened in that in there. And then they finally found him after he ripened and took him out, but you know, it basically ruined the property. Called the landlord up, I was like, listen, I'm sorry, this is beyond my scope of ability.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Wow. We don't do hazmat. Yeah, we don't do hazmen.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

I can't I can't do cleanup like this. This is this is not my thing.

unknown 35:35

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 35:36

Got out. I was like, I looked at my shoes. I'm just like, oh God, like I just burn them. Just everything had to be burned.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah. Oh, wow. Well, it's funny talking about going back to when you started and you started and I started. Um we also kind of started not only at the same time in the same space, kind of getting going, but I think it was intentional on all of our parts that if we were to design how we were going to build our business and grow our business, it was going to be networking, word of mouth, ways to grow. Spot on, dude. And so can you talk a little bit about that, about your reliance on relationships and networking? Because, you know, I'm sure it happens in your industry, it happens in mine, is that you have the people that start that just want to go rip and tear and sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, and it doesn't matter who they're writing or who the customer, you know, and you can go faster that way. Sure. But it was my intent that if I'm gonna build it, I'm gonna build it and grow it the way that I want to do based on my network and my referral system because that's the agency that I want. Can you talk a little bit about that in terms of starting out and being intentional about referrals and your network?

SPEAKER_03 37:01

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, listen, you're starting out, you don't have any money. So, you know, trying to advertise on things like LinkedIn and Thumbtack and Zoom, podcasts. I don't don't know who would do that. Yeah. Um you don't have the money for that type of stuff. Right. Right. And so the only thing you can rely on is your relationships and your network and going out there and having coffee. You know, coffee's five bucks versus a billboard. Yeah, exactly. So I did every single event possible, and I didn't know anyone at the time, right? Like I'm I'm the new guy on the scene. No one knows who I am, what I do. And I'm getting out there just kind of like taking any type of meeting I can, any introduction I can get, and everything like that. And from that has blossomed some amazing relationships. You know what I mean? I mean, it's it's become not just relationships where it's oh, we're for business and stuff, but friends. Yeah, like Tim and I go out to lunch probably once a month.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Shout out to McNally's and the Schmitter. God bless. Great place. Well, here's what's interesting about that. So that was a really good point. Um, so I heard this on a podcast recently where someone was talking about like 20, we're in 2026, and they're like, hey, what are you doing for 2026 that's different than like 2025 or even 2021? You know, and the person was like, big team, growing fast, fast, fast, like you said. And the one thing he said I thought was great, it's kind of like what we're talking about. He said, coffee over calls. Yeah. Now there's a lot of these big teams, big brokerages, even very big solo agents, that like, look, I I make phone calls from 8 a.m. until like 12 p.m. five days a week. And that is that is super honorable because that is extremely hard to do. Also, it's a big they're making a commitment. They're like, this is what I'm just gonna do because I believe in it. I'm just gonna do it five days a week. I'm gonna show up and do my appointments in the afternoon. I think what you had said about the networking and the handshakes and the having coffee, most people don't do that. Most people are just like, no, that's that's not enough people. I'm not meeting enough people that way. It's gonna slow me down. It's really the quality over quantity. If you're going out and taking the time, okay, where do you want to meet? Let's meet here. Oh, make sure your schedule is free. My schedule. Oh, can I get you a oh, that'd be nice. Yeah, I like uh, you know, I'm decaf. I don't even drink regular. Then you sit down and you talk. If it's a really good conversation, a coffee meeting will be like an hour to two hours long. Yeah. You know, if it's if it's whatever, it might be 30 to 45 minutes, but you still took that time. And I think it's very valuable as we talk about like how we had built our businesses at that time. Taking that approach versus the 80 phone calls a day or 100 phone calls a day, neither of them are right, but it's just like a totally different way of thinking. And I think if you can look at that way versus this way, you'll know what's the better fit for you. Like some people are like, nope, I want to grind, I want the dopamine, I want all that. Whereas the the coffee is a little bit more, you know what? It's like low and slow. Like, let me let me understand who I'm talking to. Like, are they an influencer? Are they down here trying to build their business just like me? And then you just get really good at that, and me and the right people could be one of the biggest clients of your career.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Absolutely. And, you know, it's funny because when I was working in financial services for the sales side, it was all dial for dollars, right? You know, pick up the phone, call a financial advisor, hope they pick up, hope they don't slam the phone in your, you know, hope in your face or door in your face. Uh and I hated that part. Just it really, it just wore down my soul. I did like the part where you would fly out and you would meet people and shake hands and have conversations and things like that, but still, you were the sales guy, right? So no one really was interested in anything you were doing except for, hey, can I get a case of ball golf balls? That'd be great. Right. Um, and I was just like, this is this tails too.

SPEAKER_00 40:56

Can we get the tails with the balls? Come on, John. Dude, I know.

SPEAKER_03 41:00

Uh and I was just like, this is this is not how to do business. This is a terrible way to do business, for me at least, right? You know, there are people out there that can make it rain that way, right? There's no doubt about it. But for me, I was not that type of person. And so I relied heavily on my ability to just go out and meet people and develop genuine connections. And I think by developing genuine connections, some of the people that I met when I first started the business, I'm still talking to today, are still referring business today. We're still going out to lunch. It's you become friends, you don't just become colleagues, you're you're friends.

SPEAKER_00 41:33

It's uncanny to me that you said I walked away from Abernine because I hated the sales. But you went in and started your business and you were like sales on steroid. You're not getting any clients in property management unless you know how to sell something. Sell, sell, sell, sell, sell. So what was it that like now it's PMR and it's mine and I'm more comfortable doing that sales?

SPEAKER_03 42:03

I think it was more along the lines of oh shit, I did this. I better make it work. Yeah, yeah. Uh and whether whether or not I am a salesperson or not, guess I got to go out there and shake some hands, right? And I think that's one of the cool things about being an entrepreneur is that yeah, you've got your kind of strengths that you bring to the table and everything like that. But as an entrepreneur, you got to do all of them, right? So I mean, I had to look at sales and say, I'm gonna sell. I gotta figure it out, I gotta do it. You know, and it I think it really helped me to develop as a person as well. It helped me to build connections. And it was one of those things where I kind of looked at it and I said, Okay, you know what? Having coffee meetings, meeting people one-on-one, great, enjoyable. It's when you get into like the big conference scene and everything like that. 150 people, I can't remember someone's name after 10 seconds. Like, what am I supposed to do? How am I supposed to how am I supposed to have a good connection with this person when they they're just looking at me for hey, can I get that pen? Thanks. Bye. Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

All right, yo, you had a really, really good tip for our bricks and riskers. How about that? Uh, your tip was business is stressful, don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise. That stress is not for everyone, and that's okay. It's okay to stop, it's okay to throw in the towel. One of the best things you can do is know when to bail out of something. Learn from your experience, be curious, and move forward. Dude, that's gotta be the best tip we've probably ever gotten on the show. What made you put that down?

SPEAKER_03 43:38

Uh listen, I mean, I've been through a bunch of different business ventures, and some of them I didn't know when to pull out of, and unfortunately, I got burnt, right? And I think that's one of those things is is sometimes you get so wrapped up in what you're doing that you kind of lose sight of what you're supposed to be doing. So for me, I was in This business venture, and I just kept pouring money into it and pouring money into it, and found out that basically it was just going nowhere. This this just is not working out. And but I wanted to believe so badly, and I wanted to do it so badly, and I wanted to see it succeed so badly.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

But I lost sight of really the point of it. And at the end of the day, I realized I should have bailed out a year ago. Like I could have saved myself a lot of stress.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

John the accountant would have pulled that hook a little bit sooner. John John the Accountant was like, Hey, hey, hello. What are you doing? How are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 44:34

What's going on, man? Uh and so, you know, I found property management, and property management wasn't exactly easy. It's actually pretty stressful at the end of the day. It's just basically dealing with everyone's problems and trying to make them better. Uh, no one calls you when everything's going right. And so I was like, okay, but I'm good at this and I like this, and this is great. And I love this. And I love the people I work with, and I love the connections I've made, and everything like that type is in nature. And for me, that was a good investment. That was me moving forward from oh, let me just keep throwing money at something that is not gonna work.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Awesome. All right, and the quote you left us also equally is good. Around here, however, we don't look backwards for very long. We keep moving forward, opening up new doors, and doing new things because we're curious. And curiosity keeps leading us down new paths by Walt Disney. The man. Why that one?

SPEAKER_03 45:29

I mean, if you think about it, it's true. If you're not curious, you're not moving forward. If you don't ask questions, you're not moving forward. The worst thing you could do as a business, as a person, as anybody, is just stop asking why. And I think that's something that we as a culture have kind of stopped doing is like just accepted that the device in our hand is gonna give us all the information we need and everything like that. That's a truth teller. Dude, and instead of just like looking at something going, can I figure out how to do that myself? Yeah, you know, and I think that's uh something we've lost, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_00 46:03

We just did a an episode on failure, and part of that um episode we talked about like dying in your comfort zone and talking about growth and where does growth happen? Growth in your business typically happens outside of your comfort zone. Absolutely. And if you're not curious and if you're not trying to do things different, if you're not trying to find a better way to do what you're doing, you are. You become a stagnant business. Stagnant leads to a malaise, leads to eventually maybe failure, maybe not, but a plateauing of your business. So I think it's critical when you're a business owner to always look inward and question things, be curious, in the hopes that there's uh a better way to do it.

SPEAKER_03 47:05

You're right. I think that if you don't take the risk and make the mistake, how are you gonna learn anything? Right? How are you gonna figure out, oh, well, I should have done it this way instead. But that's what drives you as a person. That's what drives forward your businesses. You're saying, I mean, like it's one of those things where you just kind of look at things and you say, listen, I'm gonna I may have screwed this up. Let me look back on it, let me learn a lesson from it, but uh you know, I'm gonna keep moving forward at the end of the day because if I dwell on the mistake, business ain't moving forward, I'm not moving forward, and at the end of the day, it'll consume me.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

And part of that episode, too, was what I often reference is you I always learn more from failure than any success.

SPEAKER_03 47:43

Absolutely, 100%.

SPEAKER_00 47:45

And don't like failure to some freezes you. It doesn't allow you, your your uh your fear of failure will often like stop you in your tracks. And if you get past that, that's where like great things happen.

SPEAKER_03 48:08

I think you're 100% correct. And I think that you can't be an entrepreneur without being ready to fail. A lot. I mean, I can't tell you how many times a lot. I mean how many times I was, you know, oh, what is this setting doing? Oh god, I I need to go back and now spend the next six hours fixing the what that one button click just did.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

Uh but sometimes you do it and it leads to something where it's transformational in your business.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

Yeah, like don't click that button again.

SPEAKER_00 48:35

Don't click that button again.

SPEAKER_01 48:37

All right. So before we shut this one down, why don't you tell our listeners and watchers where they can learn more about you and everything you got going on? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 48:45

You can find us at www.gopmrpmr.com. You can email us at help at gopmr.com, or you can always shoot us a message on the phone, 267-753-6005.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

The great thing about this is it's going to be a bookend episode. You're going to get John on the front, right? John on the back.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Well, I actually I wanted to say thank you for believing in us, in our show. I love the partnership that we have, you supporting Bricks and Risk and us being able to come into a great studio like this and record our show regularly. So thank you for that. Dude, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

You've been amazing, guys. Very helpful and a great support for us and the show.

SPEAKER_03 49:27

We appreciate it. Thank you so much for everything you guys are putting together. Love the episodes. Have a great time.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Awesome. Well, that's all we have for this one, folks. Thank you for tuning in again to another episode of Bricks and Risk. See you next week. Thank you for joining us on another episode of Bricks and Risk. Our goal is that you walk away with one or two valuable nuggets, and we greatly appreciate you sharing your time with us today. You can find all BR episodes on Spotify, Apple Music, YouTube, and anywhere else to get your podcast content. Until next time, keep learning and keep growing.